[SPLIT] Guns and Eurovision (now there's a thought...)

[-Visc-]

I started working with 15, guess what I bought with my first hard earned money.

[Hellscrag]

I started working with 15, guess what I bought with my first hard earned money.

Projectile devices designed for the purposes of killing people?

[Buff Skeleton]

I started working with 15, guess what I bought with my first hard earned money.

Projectile devices designed for the purposes of killing people?

Gee, that isn't a loaded statement at all.

I thought you were better than a troll, Hellscrag.

And never mind the fact that this thread was no place for this discussion; you made it that way yourself. But is it really so hard for you to accept that some people appreciate guns for their engineering quality? They aren't just "projectile devices designed for the purpose of killing people" to everyone.

[-Visc-]

Projectile devices designed for the purposes of killing people?

Sorry but that statement is incredibily narrow-minded. To quote my signature:

If guns cause crime mine must be defective.

Hellscrag, as a defender of rights of a minority (homosexual people) you really should have known better than that. You are not better than any other homo-basher if you are honest with your statement and just didnt quote the general view.

Waff is right, I dont like guns because I could kill people with them (heck I dont care about that in my hobbies)- I wouldnt even call my guns ''guns'', they are designed to put a projectile with great speed into a target with great accuracy, I dont see the slightest sign of ''killing'' anywhere in my hobby. They are sporting devices.

Beeing that narrow-minded I could say that homosexuals are spreading AIDS and kill people.

Sorry to write this going offtopic, but I cant stand statements like this.

*edit* Hellscrag, feel free to split this thread, I would not mind to have a great discussion with you about that topic, In fact I would love to talk about it.

[Hellscrag]

Ok, I'm going to back down on that one. I was only being semi-serious. You know my views and I know yours.

I thought you were better than a troll, Hellscrag.

My post may have been unnecessary, but I think that's a little harsh. If I were a troll I would probably be signing up to lots of gun enthusiasts' forums and raising hell, or something...

[Kajgue]

(heck I dont care about that in my hobbies)

That casually huh?

[Buff Skeleton]

(heck I dont care about that in my hobbies)

That casually huh?

What the hell does this even mean? What is it with you people?

[Kajgue]

The way he phrased it made it sound like "i haven't tried it yet but I don't think i'd enjoy it TBH."

What is it with you people?

Calm down, I was only joking.

[Mister_Prophet]

I don't own guns and I don't plan to. I'm not a gun enthusiast and everyone I know who has an NRA card is a complete douche....

...But when I see someone shoot a fifty caliber slug from a Desert Eagle AE into a big watermelon and watch that thing explode into a bizzallion pieces...well....that's just fucking awesome.

[-Visc-]

The way he phrased it made it sound like "i haven't tried it yet but I don't think i'd enjoy it TBH."

Bad choice of words I guess, what I meant is '' such things like ''killing'' have no priority in my hobbies''.

I'm not a gun enthusiast and everyone I know who has an NRA card is a complete douche....

Well, a lot of rednecks do so I can understand your NRA-dislike, although I am a lobbyist too. (not the NRA but something similar)

..But when I see someone shoot a fifty caliber slug from a Desert Eagle AE into a big watermelon and watch that thing explode into a bizzallion pieces...well....that's just fucking awesome.

Well, guess what would be even more fucking awesome? If you were the guy owning a .50 Desert Eagle shooting the melon.

[Mister_Prophet]

Well, a lot of rednecks do so I can understand your NRA-dislike, although I am a lobbyist too. (not the NRA but something similar)

I didn't say I dislike the NRA. I just know some douche burglars...who happen to be card holders when it comes to their right to bear arms. I imagine they'd be that way whether they owned guns or not.

Well, guess what would be even more fucking awesome? If you were the guy owning a .50 Desert Eagle shooting the melon.

Yeah it would. But I dunno if I could buy a Desert Eagle just to shoot fruit. I mean, I'd have to tell myself that, yeah, it would also be handy for...you know, the zombie invasion.

[Buff Skeleton]

It doesn't make much sense to buy guns, does it? They are expensive, their ammunition is expensive, they require maintenance, and ultimately, if you aren't a criminal, they don't have much practical use... oh wait. Doesn't this describe most hobbies?

Collecting and using guns is no different from any other hobby at the end of the day. People get them for their engineering quality, their aesthetic, their historical representations, etc. The only real difference between gun collectors and stamp collectors is that guns are, yes, designed to kill people, but that doesn't mean all gun owners kill people, just as all sword collectors don't go around lopping off heads.

Just thought I would throw that out there. It always annoys me when people are irrationally against gun-ownership just because they can be dangerous in the hands of an angry idiot (like most objects heavier than a salt shaker)--and I say this as someone who has never owned a gun and never has had any interest in collecting them.

No one should judge other people based on what makes them tick, either. Just because someone likes guns, that doesn't mean they like them for their killing potential. Me, I love military hardware--tanks, aircraft, munitions, heavy weapons of all sorts, long-range artillery, missiles, battleships, you name it. Now, I don't collect these things because, obviously, I am not rolling in trillions of dollars yet (I will be once EXU2 is released for the Nintendo X-Station 3, though, of course), but if I did, I certainly wouldn't go around massacring people with them even though I very well could. I would appreciate them for the science and engineering behind them, their abilities, the sounds they make, they way they look and feel, and the nice-looking explosions (in safely-controlled environments).

Well anyway, probably more than needed to be said, but that's how I've always felt about this issue and it just happened to come up in this thread.

[Hellscrag]

My feelings in a nutshell are that, yes, many objects (such as golf clubs or kitchen knives) can be dangerous in the hands of somebody who has a considered intention to do harm or has a psychotic episode*; but when ranged weapons are involved, the likely death toll before the person in question is overpowered is so very much higher... and, the only real defense against a madman with a gun is another gun, which, if lots of people carry guns as a result, perpetuates the problem... also, given that there are so many different types of device that can be collected and appreciated for their aesthetic and engineering qualities, for guns (which, as Waff just said, ARE ultimately designed for killing people and animals) to be the object of desire seems slightly weird to me. What's the difference, from a collector's point of view, between collecting e.g. clocks or cars and collecting guns, other than the sense of power derived from holding a firearm, with the knowledge that you could so easily kill someone or something with it?

* Which could conceivably happen to anybody under the right circumstances...

[Buff Skeleton]

... other than the sense of power derived from holding a firearm, with the knowledge that you could so easily kill someone or something with it?

That's just not why most people I know who collect guns do it, though. That's making a judgment about their character based solely on their choice of hobby, which isn't fair to them.

What about people who collect realistic gun replicas or disabled weapons that are incapable of firing? Do they collect guns for a different reason than people who get the real ones?

[-Visc-]

My feelings in a nutshell are that, yes, many objects (such as golf clubs or kitchen knives) can be dangerous in the hands of somebody who has a considered intention to do harm or has a psychotic episode*;

You know, my mightiest weapon I own is my car, ist over 2000 pounds of hardened steel, it can go over 170 mp/h and I could kill 10 persons at once if I ever go crazy (or just loose control of it). The problem is I am a mentally very stable person, and I had undergo a lot of tests to own such a dangerous piece of craftsmanship. - Same with my rifles.

but when ranged weapons are involved, the likely death toll before the person in question is overpowered is so very much higher..

The bloodiest (school) massacres were made with bombs, look for the ''Bath School disaster''. 45 People were killed with a 230kg bomb so dont tell me that a ranged weapon is -oh so deadly.

and, the only real defense against a madman with a gun is another gun, which, if lots of people carry guns as a result, perpetuates the problem..

.
The problem you described implies that at least half civilization is either dumb or crazy and cannot be trusted to bear any responsibility , which is in my opinion a rather ''cocky'' way to see your fellow men.
If this would be the case no man can trusted to drive a car safely either, because they are as dangerous or even more to harm people (because almost every man owns a car), and its easier too.
You must live in a world full of fear, especially when taking a bus or traveling by plane, because other people have the responsibility of your and other peoples lives.

also, given that there are so many different types of device that can be collected and appreciated for their aesthetic and engineering qualities, for guns (which, as Waff just said, ARE ultimately designed for killing people and animals) to be the object of desire seems slightly weird to me.

Well if my guns are designed to kill I use them completely wrong, as do my 20 friends /fellow shooters which also own firerams and just shoot them for fun. You really think all these firerams from Remington, S&W all the thousand guns which get sold every year are designed just to kill? Well there would be no human beeing left if that would be the case. As example I also collect bows, swords and crossbows. But they are designed to kill too? Well, than all people use them wrong it seems.

also, given that there are so many different types of device that can be collected and appreciated for their aesthetic and engineering qualities, for guns (which, as Waff just said, ARE ultimately designed for killing people and animals) to be the object of desire seems slightly weird to me.

I could say the same thing to gay people, ''there are so many beautiful women to love but why do you desire men?'' Thats seems weird to me. - See? You cannot choose what you like and what you dont like, who you desire and who you dont. And thats why not accepting another mans likes is unfair, narrow minded and a sign of big ignorance.


Ultimately, its always the same story, what uninformed people dont understand gives them fears.

* Which could conceivably happen to anybody under the right circumstances...

I thought you were an opend minded, tolerant man and know this. You really think you know other people? Well, you better should get a job as a representative of the people in the politics, you know they always seem to know what people want and what not. (attention, irony)