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Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 14:35
by UBerserker
There are also the Zephon Super-Rocket bots and Xan Cyborgs (of Xidia) in certain maps.

I checked the Mine map. It's basically 70% of the mine sections of Xidia, caves from ONP and the beginning of AS-Tutorial.
Other maps feature a big part of the ONP section by Chicoverde and there's also stuff from the Xidia Ice maps of Houry.

Ahahaha, Cross Country is the first Shuttle map of ONP! :lol:

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 14:39
by Mister_Prophet
I knew it was a ONP map, but I could not place it. :o

Frieza wrote:
I'm rather disappointed with this. It's a blemish on your mappack that seems to contain mostly original content otherwise.

That is the tragedy. Assuming the parts I think are original are in fact his, he would have had a solid mappack if not for the ripped content. I don't even understand why it was necessary. The pack was big enough without the stolen parts.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 14:46
by Semfry
Frieza wrote:I have to say I didn't notice the Xidia cave but then I'm not that familiar with the pack. I'm sure though a part of the cave looked very familiar to a cave in the 3rd map from ONP. I'm afraid it might yield similar results :|

Yeah, that's ripped too. I've got kind of mixed feelings about this; levels like Cross Country at least only used terrain and made everything else quite different, but then maps like the mine seem to just plain rip stuff with a few tweaks. Hearing about the other stuff makes it hard to tell what might be ripped and what isn't. I get the feeling it's mostly just terrain stuff though based on whats been found so far.

It kind of makes me wonder whether the level before the mine (which had a really impressive scale) is ripped from anything, as if the author pulled that off on their own I wonder why the ripping was done.

UBerserker wrote:There are also the Zephon Super-Rocket bots and Xan Cyborgs (of Xidia) in certain maps.

Using custom enemies is kind of different to architecture (they're kind of there to be used), though credits for it should still be there.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 14:55
by Mister_Prophet
Enemies, prefabs, and meshes are one thing. Customized enemies, prefabs, and meshes are another...depending on the quality.

Maps are a clear violation.

It's obvious the maps were ripped without permission. I do kind of feel that some of the meshes (like the SF ones, the few that were used, and the Zephon robots) are a little more than just a Unreal/UT enemy with a new skin. I can see the makers of those having issues if they were not contacted.

When you get right down to it, Content from four major community packs (that I've noticed) was used to bloat what could have been an impressively sized 100% original mappack...into a travesty of mapper tact and integrity.

I mean...he had to know that someone would notice he ripped other people off, right?

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 15:14
by Loke
How disappointing. :/

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 15:29
by jazz
Like i mentioned in the readme

I'm not that good at doing complex outdoor scenes or mines for that matter and i did mention that i borrowed brushes to that effect from other
maps that did a lot better job than i could do.

Did you read the readme ? there are after all a lot of brushes that are my own later on as i experimented with the terrain builder and got better skills using it.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 15:36
by Frieza
It is just not done to take parts of existing maps and copy it over to your own without asking for the original author's permission, even if you acknowledge you 'borrowed' it in the readme.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:03
by jazz

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:08
by Hourences
Did you even credit me in your readme then?

You obviously spend a lot of time on this so it is a shame that it got to this, but you really should ask, and you did copy more than just a brush here and there really.

Making caves is very easy once you get the hang out of it. I don't even use UED for caves. Making a mine corridor takes me 10 minutes to make. You should learn it.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:11
by Frieza
Look, apart from copying these terrain sections I do think the rest of the mappack displays considerable skill and I for would be sad to see you leave. You do have something to be proud of here, I'm guessing you just didn't realize what you did with regards to copying the brushes is that it's something which is considered as something of a cardinal sin amongst the mapping community. There really is a lot to be salvaged here but some of the things really need to be adapted/changed or acquired permission for if you want to have it out in the open. I'm sure it would be a greater satisfaction for you as well if you can call it 100% your own.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:19
by Buff Skeleton
Wow, this sure was a surprise to wake up to :/

Hourences wrote:Making caves is very easy once you get the hang out of it. I don't even use UED for caves. Making a mine corridor takes me 10 minutes to make. You should learn it.

Oh hey by the way, UArch showed me your Max cave tutorial the other day; that's amazing. I've got to try my hand at it now that I've started learning Max :) Sure beats manually editing a pile of deintersected tessellated cubes vertex-by-vertex.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:25
by GTD-Carthage
JazzyB, if you are that man, I gave you tons of asspats long ago for creating a certain DM-Xenome using those nicely done Doom 3 textures. Now I was about to give you more asspats again for your outstanding record at breaking up to 40-maps, a title held by Operation Na Pali. What's even more surprising is that you did this all by yourself while ONP was by an entire team fo dedicated modders - a skill all of us mappers here by all means will take seriously.

Now you were going to be praised like a god of level design for doing this and I, myself, I was considering giving myself a hit in the back for being beaten this way but...

All these content you've stolen is unjust and I'm frankly disappointed as well that this has happened. Copying entire sections of maps is, indeed, a terrible sin looked down upon by everyone here.

Jazz, you probably feel real bad and in surprise about this but no, DON'T remove or delete your entire pack - instead remove the sections claimed by other authors and leave your originals and do a more appropriate release. It's likely that your own maps already constitute a worthy map pack on its own and why you had to copy and paste, even for lacking the ability for making caves which are talked about in various mapping tutorials out there, is beyond reason for any mapper.

Remember, crediting is not an excuse for stealing or borrowing.

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:27
by jazz
Hi Hourences

Believe it or not i am quite new to mapping for UT , even though i spent a bit of time on this .
I'm still trying to learn even some of the basics , not to mention the people involved ( just look at the mappack thing ).

From what i have seen it is my opnion that you are the finest mapper on the scene ( forgive my ignorance but i did'nt know you were the author of the brushes in question ) I truly am sorry if i upset you in any way but my readme gave me the broadest way of giving appreciation to the greats

Dont want to sound as though i'm a...licking here but it happens to be true .

There are a few brushes that i used from ONP and Xidia because when i first saw them they blew me away , and so i tried to mix and match as best i could with my limited knowledge of that time .
There are maps later on that i tried to make an outdoor scene , one of which is ' dogs of war' and a few others but they are no way near your level , it seems i still have much to learn........ apologies.
I will take off the file later tonight no matter what people say now
as i believe i may have given myself a bad rep that wont rub off .

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:33
by GTD-Carthage

We are NOT asking you to leave and you do NOT have a bad reputation at all - and especially you won't have any if you do this right.

Just remove all those content claimed by others and release your originals, that's all we're asking.

Ain't no one here gonna stop him from dropping a nuke on himself? :/

Posted: 29 Mar 2009, 16:39
by Frieza
I just had a look at Dogs of War and it really looks great. Maybe it's not on par with some of the 3D max work Hourences does but it really isn't bad at all, in fact it's better than most terrain made with the terrain brush. You don't have a bad rep with me because I really believe you failed to see the graveness of the mistake. But that's all it is, it's a mistake, you learn from it and you move on. I think you're a very accomplished mapper and I'd like to see more of you as well as Project Xenome.

What can I do to convince you not to leave?