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SP mapping, got an old problem.

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redeye
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Posts: 1393
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 06:55

Subject: SP mapping, got an old problem.

Post Posted: 06 Apr 2008, 05:41

Ok here is the deal.

Doing ok on other things editor wise.
However now that I finaly am doing my first level, got some strangeness which I exspected.

I have areas and so on, but now that I got that far, my problem is weapons vs enemies.

How does one kow if you have enough fire power vs placing the pawns you want to fight.?(spawns)
Now don''t call me stupid cuz I played vid games since "Pong" was ONLY in the shopping malls, so I know what I want.


Buit I find it hard to not be a MH map without 996 ammo, and struggling to make it an "SP" map.
I realise you add stronger and stronger weapons through the match, but it aint that easy.

One BIG problem is, is I know for a fact that SP maps don't allow respawning of ammo.And am not sure if the placed ammo settings affect "singleplater2" gametype.

If you play aa map vs being online coop mode how the hell do I know if certain ammo respawns, of needed ofline.
How can I set ammo to respawn if I need to or not?
And
When does one know per enemy strength which weapons to add, while playing .
Just ban everyone

User avatar zYnthetic
Skaarj Warlord Skaarj Warlord
Posts: 510
Joined: 12 Nov 2007, 00:10

Subject:

Post Posted: 06 Apr 2008, 08:28

Playtest. It's the only way.
Add what you think is needed. Play it. Then change it.
Use bSinglePlayer=Flase flags on extra items for coop only, likewise with bNet=False if you want to restrict something to sp only.
Image

User avatar cronodevir
Skaarj Berserker Skaarj Berserker
Posts: 271
Joined: 12 Nov 2007, 07:46

Subject:

Post Posted: 06 Apr 2008, 08:49

automag only and 0 health in the level...that is about average. [you need a couple titans in the map to even out the fire power your giving the player]
I'm Garble and MrBlowtatoes

User avatar Creavion
Skaarj Warlord Skaarj Warlord
Posts: 745
Joined: 12 Nov 2007, 09:43

Subject: Re: SP mapping, got anm old problem.

Post Posted: 06 Apr 2008, 10:41

redeye wrote:One BIG problem is, is I know for a fact that SP maps don't allow respawning of ammo.And am not sure if the placed ammo settings affect "singleplater2" gametype.

If you play aa map vs being online coop mode how the hell do I know if certain ammo respawns, of needed ofline.
How can I set ammo to respawn if I need to or not?
And
When does one know per enemy strength which weapons to add, while playing .

Jail Brake :B

Code: Select all

//=============================================================================
// UPakHealth.
//=============================================================================
class UPakHealth expands Health;

var() bool bRespawnInSP;
// This needs to be tested; I need to remove the Tick function and see if it works without it. Until then, this is just a hack to make
// sure the health in the spaceship actually falls out of the glass container when the glass is broken.


function Bump( actor Other )
{
   local float speed, oldZ;
   
   if( ( Other != None && !Other.IsA( 'Pawn' ) ) )
   {
      oldZ = Velocity.Z;
      speed = VSize(Other.Velocity);
      Velocity = Other.Velocity * FMin(120.0, 20 + speed)/speed;
      if ( Physics == PHYS_None ) {
         Velocity.Z = 25;
      }
      else
         Velocity.Z = oldZ;
      SetPhysics(PHYS_Falling);
   }
}


singular function BaseChange()
{
   local float decorMass, decorMass2;

   decormass= FMax(1, Mass);
   if( Velocity.Z < -500 )
      TakeDamage( (1-Velocity.Z/30),Instigator,Location,vect(0,0,0) , 'crushed');

   if( (base == None) && (Physics == PHYS_None) )
      SetPhysics(PHYS_Falling);
   else if( (Pawn(base) != None) && (Pawn(Base).CarriedDecoration != self) )
   {
      Base.TakeDamage( (1-Velocity.Z/400)* decormass/Base.Mass,Instigator,Location,0.5 * Velocity , 'crushed');
      Velocity.Z = 100;
      if (FRand() < 0.5)
         Velocity.X += 70;
      else
         Velocity.Y += 70;
      SetPhysics(PHYS_Falling);
   }
   else if( Decoration(Base)!=None && Velocity.Z<-500 )
   {
      decorMass2 = FMax(Decoration(Base).Mass, 1);
      Base.TakeDamage((1 - decorMass/decorMass2 * Velocity.Z/30), Instigator, Location, 0.2 * Velocity, 'stomped');
      Velocity.Z = 100;
      if (FRand() < 0.5)
         Velocity.X += 70;
      else
         Velocity.Y += 70;
      SetPhysics(PHYS_Falling);
   }
   else
   {
      SetPhysics( PHYS_Falling );
      instigator = None;
   }
}


//
// Set up respawn waiting if desired.
//
function SetRespawn()
{
   GotoState('Sleeping');
}


State Sleeping
{
   ignores Touch;

   function BeginState()
   {
      SetPhysics( PHYS_None );
      BecomePickup();
      bHidden = true;
   }
   function EndState()
   {
      local int i;

      bSleepTouch = false;
      for ( i=0; i<4; i++ )
         if ( (Touching[i] != None) && Touching[i].IsA('Pawn') )
            bSleepTouch = true;
   }         
Begin:
   Sleep( ReSpawnTime );
   PlaySound( RespawnSound );   
   Level.Game.PlaySpawnEffect(self);
   Sleep( 0.3 );
   SetPhysics( Default.Physics );
   GoToState( 'Pickup' );
}


Thats the code from the Upack Healthpack from RTNP. Maybe anybody could write an AmmoRespawnMutator with the basic of that, I dont know...

User avatar Hellscrag
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Posts: 4007
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 19:14
Location: In a random access memory of dreams

Subject:

Post Posted: 06 Apr 2008, 12:01

redeye, does this question even need to be asked? Play the thing and find out!
Image
Life is what you make of it.

redeye
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Posts: 1393
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 06:55

Subject:

Post Posted: 07 Apr 2008, 06:22

Well it is all very confusing other than to just play the map 3 trillion times.

For instance, take a warlord and the ammount of health it has.
Then couple that with the ammount of damage the ammo type does.
Add in which weapon max ammo ammounts.
Then if the skill level settings are changed from the player.
And lets say one player who is really good can easily blast through a certain section, but I may not be as skilled, so even if I play it doesn't mean there is a standard to work off of.

We need a graph that compares how much each weapon can damage (secondary fire as well), each pawn to at least have some basis to work from, rather than just peeing in the wind.

I just never got into all of this SP type of thinking before,DM is easy because all you need is enough weapons,health and ammo and each player has the same ammount of health.

One thing is the storyline and traps and mapping, but the dynamics of how much shooting one wants and the size of the map.
I could place stuff all over so you have all ammo all weapons all the way through, but the gameplay is a bit more critical than storyline,graphics or other nice additions.

Too many pawns and not enough fire power, or to easy with too much fire power, not quite sure how to tackle this.
Just ban everyone

XYZ8000
Skaarj Assassin Skaarj Assassin
Posts: 131
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 21:00
Contact:

Subject:

Post Posted: 07 Apr 2008, 14:56

It's absolutely impossible to balance out things basing on math. Why? Because who will play the map will not be a machine, but a human. Some players have impressive accuracy, some others can't shoot down anything moving quickly. Some players can avoid every project and attack, some others get hit by at least 2 projectiles at every Skaarj they find. Those are the extremes, but you get the idea.
You'd say that difficulties are made for this, but you can't just set up the Hard to be "Perfect" and Easy to be "Just roam around", since sometimes also excellent players can get hit often since the game isn't just a repetitive sequence of button presses but it's randomized each time you play it.

Just test it.

User avatar Buff Skeleton
>:E >:E
Posts: 4173
Joined: 15 Dec 2007, 00:46

Subject:

Post Posted: 07 Apr 2008, 15:06

redeye wrote:Well it is all very confusing other than to just play the map 3 trillion times.

No, really, it IS as easy/simple as playtesting a lot. If you have never made a map before, you obviously aren't going to get gameplay balance right the first time, or the second, third, fourth... you probably won't get a good balance the first time you release a project unless you spend months on it (which is a typical, if not minimal, time frame for any decent project).

The more you make maps and the more you PLAY maps, both with good AND bad balance, the better your balancing intuition will become. You just have to have experience to know where to place what items and how much ammo to provide for which guns. The maps you play will show you how to do things (and how not to do things); the maps you release will provide you with feedback from players and/or reviewers. From there, you learn more and get better at gameplay balance from your own playing experience and feedback.

The bottom line is that your map should be fun to play. If you aren't enjoying your own map, keep working on it until you are. Also, if your own map is very difficult for you, then it is going to be REALLY hard for players who don't know where all the items and creatures are. Make the map so that it is fairly easy for YOU to complete, but still challenging for others (unless, of course, you advertise it as an extremely hard map, in which case people should prepare for the worst. You risk alienating weaker players, though, if you don't provide an Easy option via difficulty filtering or otherwise).

redeye
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Posts: 1393
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 06:55

Subject:

Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008, 07:47

Thanks XYZ and Waffnuffly, I will add pawns and the way I theroreticaly want it to be.
Then I guess I will keep adding pickups until it's possible to beat.

Not spamage pawns though, this level should be fairely hard and tricky, to get through.
I have one person to test it, he is a good player in DM so that will help before I do any uploading.
Just ban everyone

User avatar Mister_Prophet
Red Nemesis Leader Red Nemesis Leader
Posts: 3098
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 23:30
Location: Lost in Oraghar

Subject:

Post Posted: 08 Apr 2008, 07:53

i'll test it for you. Just email the map to me [email protected]

redeye
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Posts: 1393
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 06:55

Subject:

Post Posted: 09 Apr 2008, 08:15

Ok Mr Prophet , I will do that.
I need to finish up the main stuff to have it make sense as a game level.
I will leave out mover sounds, I have to do all sounds, and other things I don't need to add before I send it.

It's not too bad actualy, but you would hold a wealth of feedback, but I need to make it so you know whats up.
Each section is kinda thought out and still working on things.

Say about 2 weeks-ish.
Got this damn IRS tax crap sux.
Just ban everyone

User avatar Mister_Prophet
Red Nemesis Leader Red Nemesis Leader
Posts: 3098
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 23:30
Location: Lost in Oraghar

Subject:

Post Posted: 09 Apr 2008, 18:38

:tup:

redeye
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Posts: 1393
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 06:55

Subject:

Post Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 21:27

Why is my Titan not "patroling" it will goto patrol point 2 do 4 animations, but then stay there.
I also have the patrolpoints fairely close, easily "seeable"

If it walks around and hits patrol point 3 it will do the animation then stay at that spot.
The brutes patrol fine, I assume all the pawns can do patroling.


(getting there Proph)
Just ban everyone

User avatar Creavion
Skaarj Warlord Skaarj Warlord
Posts: 745
Joined: 12 Nov 2007, 09:43

Subject:

Post Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 23:18

redeye wrote:Why is my Titan not "patroling" it will goto patrol point 2 do 4 animations, but then stay there.
I also have the patrolpoints fairely close, easily "seeable"

If it walks around and hits patrol point 3 it will do the animation then stay at that spot.
The brutes patrol fine, I assume all the pawns can do patroling.


(getting there Proph)

Maybe not, well at least I havent ever seen a patroling titan anywhere. :/
>:E
--------------------------------------------------
Waffnuffly wrote:Holy shit a HOUSE-SIZED BOX

--------------------------------------------------
>:E

User avatar Hellscrag
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Posts: 4007
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 19:14
Location: In a random access memory of dreams

Subject:

Post Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 23:44

Right click on the top of the 3D viewport and choose View > Show Paths. There should now be blue lines between the PatrolPoints. If there are red lines or no lines at all then define a clearly navigable route using PathNodes*. Rebuild paths to make sure that the route is composed of blue lines all the way.

* It's a common misconception that a patrol route must be defined solely using PatrolPoints. However, any NavigationPoint will do. In fact, a PatrolPoint with no delay or animations set up will cause the creature to freeze momentarily in an ugly way before continuing along the next step of the path. Therefore, you should only use PatrolPoints for the following:

- The ends of the route;
- Points where you need the creature to pause or play animations; and
- Situations where the creature takes a different route, following the broader network of NavigationPoints, from the one that you want it to.

Everything else should be composed of PathNodes.

Take a look round the first map of Deja Vu with View Paths switched on to see what I mean. The whole map is PathNoded and includes lift support etc.; the PatrolPoints and AlarmPoints are just slotted into the existing path network. Having a proper path network throughout the map also makes creatures chase you much more effectively (take a look at how the Krall behave in the water bridges area of the first map of Deja Vu, for example).

N.B. If I remember correctly, NavigationPoints must be a maximum of around 700uu apart.
Image

Life is what you make of it.

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