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[u1] Resurrection

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User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 04:44

On Semi-solids, the truth is a little between what Hellscrag and Waffnuffly say. You should never use them prolifically (Mike, we've had this talk concerning some maps you've sent my way :o), but disregarding them altogether is something I can't say is exactly wise. They have their place.

If you ask me, the only thing in UED that is a non-essential feature besides in how it's used (obviously) in the manufacturing of movers or prefabs, is the Intersect function. I can't tell you how many people I see that use Intersecting for general construction, and they almost always use it improperly. Even I can't trust it beyond prefabs/movers, and I know what the hell I'm doing. It's like hiding a bomb somewhere in your map. Trust me, if you can build something without Intersecting, then build something without it.
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User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 05:13

I used to intersect a LOT because it reduced the amount of brushes in the map. I used to think that the number of brushes, not the complexity of them, was what mattered.

I was dumb.


(And yes there's a place for semisolids, a place called When-nothing-else-works-ville)
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User avatar WhirlWindWabbit
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 16:11

I would like to thank you all for your generous input on the matter of brushes, but I think I did not explain properly why I was asking about nodes and semisolids. You see, I've been working with UnrealEd for almost 8 years now, and I've pretty much got things covered concerning (semi)solids and the way (not) to use them. If a brush is complex - go with semisolids. Can the player walk on the brush/there is a bunch of brushes together - go with solids, as semis create weird zoning problems, plus you can easily fall through semis if they aren't built correctly. One exception are stairs, which I always make semi-solid for the insane amount of cuts a solid stair makes.

But this was all besides the point.

When I started building this pack, I had two maps in my mind. I've stayed true to my original idea, but I've had to split the first map into two parts because of the insanely high amount of nodes in the level. That was until yesterday, when I hit 68k+ nodes on a quick geometry rebuild (no optimization and no lighting), when I was forced to cut the map into two additional pieces. So, basically, the first map will be divided into three maps. Not because of its size, but because the complexity of the map forced the engine over the edge. On another note, I wish to just add that the map has not one BSP problem or a HOM yet. I really use as clean a geometry as possible. I just do not understand what it is in the level that is bumping the node count so much, as I m building this level as I've always built them, my Zephon work included.

That is the sole reason for my growing interest in nodes and the nature of their creation/impact on maps. That is why I asked for advice, and that is why I would like to learn as much about them as possible :)

Just to make matters crystal clear on how I am building the level:

- 80% of the geometry is carved out using substracted brushes - I'm avoiding the "substract a cube and than add geometry back in" method. None the less, things need to be added back into the world to make it interesting,
- so the remaining important 15% of the level is solid. This includes brushes that would otherwise create small zones within themselves, were they semi-solid. General rule of thumb I have is "if a brush is simple (e.g. cube-based), make it solid". Same goes for surfaces on which the player can walk,
- next 4% of brushes are semi-solid. They are decorative brushes that are either too complex to be solid (e.g. made with the 2D shape editor - pure decorations), or are better of being semi-solid (again, the case with the stairs),
- the remaining 1% are 4 brushes with 600+ polys each, which are added in the world as movers simply because they do not add to the node count and have nothing to do with the BSP.

Also add a few non-solids in there and that is it (zone portals and a few flame brushes). :)
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Doublez-Down
Skaarj Warlord Skaarj Warlord
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 16:18

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Semis ftw. ;)
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User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 16:40

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH that is going to give me nightmares, NIGHTMARES
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User avatar Semfry
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 16:52

Mister_Prophet wrote:On Semi-solids, the truth is a little between what Hellscrag and Waffnuffly say. You should never use them prolifically (Mike, we've had this talk concerning some maps you've sent my way :o), but disregarding them altogether is something I can't say is exactly wise. They have their place.


What does not using them too prolifically mean? Is it something like all solid for cubic brushes and semis for things that make lots of cuts (like arches) or that cut into complex geometry?
Formerly Mman

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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 16:53

Ugh Semisolids >:E
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Doublez-Down
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 17:02

Waffnuffly wrote:UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH that is going to give me nightmares, NIGHTMARES


I can see 3 more brushes in there that "could" be turned to semis as well but I just didn't bother.

Oh yeah, /derail.
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User avatar Hellscrag
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 19:12

Shivaxi wrote:That's how I usually do it...you'd have to use the special brush every time u want to make it semi-solid right from initial build, which wastes time and also makes it permanently semi-solid which is why I almost never use the Special Brush build...why the hell does it do that anyway?


It doesn't. You can change it later just as you can any other additive brush.

Proph: Aside from the additional zones bug, which I was already aware of and which is easily detected and fixed, I don't recall anything you told me dissuading me from thinking that semisolids are the way to go.

WhirlWindWabbit, the node count is reduced significantly between Geometry and BSP rebuild. If you switch the 3D view to wireframe mode, it won't try to render and so UEd won't crash even if it goes over the nodelimit between the two stages. If, however, the map is still over 65535 nodes after the BSP rebuild then UEd will crash when it tries to rebuild lighting.
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User avatar Shivaxi
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 21:11

@ Hellscrag: Yes it does...I've tried many times. You may think it changes, but once you rebuild it goes right back to being whatever it was initially from the special brush build....you can't even change the texture properties ><
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User avatar ividyon
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 21:15

you dont need to use specialbrush to make a semisolid, you can simply change the CSG property of a regular brush after creating it :P
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User avatar Hellscrag
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 21:19

Shivaxi wrote:@ Hellscrag: Yes it does...I've tried many times. You may think it changes, but once you rebuild it goes right back to being whatever it was initially from the special brush build....you can't even change the texture properties ><


Oh, wait a minute, are you using UEd1?
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User avatar Shivaxi
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 23:01

@Sana: Yes...I know...that was my whole point as to why NOT to use a Special Brush lol.

@Hellscrag: No. I'm using 227 UED which is 2.0 (or 2.1 now in G)...I don't believe it makes a difference...I shall test in UT99 though just to see.

*tests*

It still does it in UT99 UED. So it's a universal thing. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. Simple way is to do this:

1. Subtract a cube in a new level.

2. Now make a smaller cube that will fit in that subtracted cube you just made, and use the Special Brush option to make it translucent, and build.

3. Select the surfaces of the translucent cube, go into texture properties, and uncheck translucent so they're no longer see-through.

4. Rebuild the map, and watch UED give you the finger, making the textures go back to being translucent again.
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Waffnuffly: If there is any purpose for the god damned ocean, it is for us to eat it.
Jet_v4.3.5: I want to be Lincoln and kick Satan's ass. Emancipate and Proclimate on his ass.

User avatar Buff Skeleton
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 23:18

Shiv is right; this happens in every version of UE1.
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User avatar WhirlWindWabbit
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Subject: Re: [ut] Resurrection

Post Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 23:30

Shivaxi wrote:4. Rebuild the map, and watch UED give you the finger, making the textures go back to being translucent again.


lol :D
"Sir, we're surrounded!"

"Good, we can attack in any direction."

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