Classic Unreal feel Vs. the Modern Feel

[Lightning Hunter]

I thought about making this a poll, but decided against it. I want written opinions, and not just votes.

Over in the Firestorm forum, I started thinking about all the custom maps I play for Unreal the most, and realized they all have something in common - the classic Unreal feel. Basically, I've noticed that you can lump most user-made maps into two categories: Modern, and Classic. Here are some examples of the classic feel:

Tower of Shrakitha
Hexephet
Illhaven
Deja Vu
Shamu Quest
Strange World
Attacked (although there is a hint of modern feeling)

Most of these maps and packs share some common texture themes: Ancient, Skaarj Base, Skytown, Mine, etc.. Basically, they closely share the storytelling style and theme of the original Unreal. They have crashed ships, magical towns, Ancient Temples, Nali villages, and classic Unreal weapons. Most of the textures are from Unreal in these maps. There is rarely, if ever, any contact with live humans. I find myself playing the aforementioned maps quite often.

Now here are some examples of the Modern feel:

Xidia
Seven Bullets
Operation Na Pali
Project Zephon
Spatial Fear: Prologue v1.2
Ortican

This group of maps arguably have far better architecture than the first set. They use some more modern themes like SGtech and UT Texture sets. They take a whole new direction from Unreal, and attempt to modernize the game. Nali might be found in some of these packs, but only mixed with newer elements. The classic Unreal feeling is mostly abolished from the aforementioned maps, and replaced with a more modern feel. UT Weapons are more commonly used.

Although I enjoy playing modern packs, I don't find the urge to play them as often as the maps with the classic Unreal feel. I find that the UT Texture sets and themes bore me. Call me old school, but I also enjoy the lonesome feeling of the classic Unreal packs. The bots introduced into some of the modern packs don't appeal to me. I understand that the creators were trying to add human contact, but I actually prefer being trapped on an Alien world with Alien beings. Basically, only me and my thoughts (and especially no voice acting). I don't need to encounter other humans. I also wish that more newer packs would use the classic Unreal themes like Skaarj Base, Mine, Ancient, and Skytown. Hexephet and Star 861 are the only two maps off the top of my head that use the Skaarj Base theme wisely (besides the official game). I'm not sure if Firestorm has any such maps, but I certainly hope it does!

So, what is your own personal preference? Do you enjoy the classic Unreal feel, or the Modern feel?

[Buff Skeleton]

I prefer the classic feel too. I like modern stuff too, but find myself thinking more often of the classics when I think of Unreal and custom maps, back before it was a huge production to make content. Seems rare now that there are just small maps getting released, though within the past year we've had a lot of good ones come out, thankfully!

But everything in the right amounts. I play the modern stuff occasionally and work on my own things most of the time, but every couple of years I get a real nostalgia kick going and crave the oldschool experience, so I replay the original game and some old maps. I always use the V1 Sounds Mod, too. Can't stand UT sounds in Unreal! I like the UT sounds and all, but keep them in UT, please.

I also really miss the old Unreal music when I play newer stuff. It's all either UT music or MP3 music, and while it's good, and usually perfectly fitting and there's nothing wrong with it, there's just something about the original game's score that REALLY establishes the atmosphere better than anything else I've come across in any other game to date. I think that's one of the major reasons I like playing the old content; it largely uses the original game music.

Damnit, now I am on a nostalgia kick and feel the need to get back to the olds again for a bit

[Lightning Hunter]

Yes, I agree Waff. I'm sure nostalgia has something to do with my favorite map packs, but not always! I keep hoping that Firestorm will have the classic feel, but with a few new elements mixed in for a surprise. If it ends up falling in the modern category, I will still like it, but might not end up playing it as many times as the classic feel packs.

By the way, just to clarify one thing - I'm not necessarily referring to the age of a map when I say it has a classic feel. Deja Vu and Attacked, for example, were made more recently, but have the classic feel. Ortican was actually made before these, but has a more modern feel. Naturally, most of the classic feel maps were made a long time ago, since they only had access to Unreal inventory, textures, music, and ideas.

[ividyon]

I love the classic map packs as much as anybody else, but I believe in this day and age even Unreal maps should be pushing towards new frontiers and innovation rather than employing the same ancient texture packs, mapping techniques, gameplay formulae etc. that so many "classic" maps have already explored. I desperately long for Unreal maps that present completely fresh content and ideas that deviate from the standard formula not only in map visuals. EXU2 comes to mind, bringing completely new weapons, gameplay balance, systems like colorful gibs and HUD, but sadly gets dragged down by the re-usage of original Unreal maps in that respect. The upcoming Chronicles of Weedrow 2 project has absolutely nothing that reminds one of Unreal save for characters, and even features a vastly different way of interacting with the world. That's the kind of thing I long to see. I guess I'm just a fan of total conversions?

[Mister_Prophet]

Interesting discussion.

I guess like most here I find myself playing Classic maps more often as well, despite the fact that it could be said that the packs I've released fit into your "modern" category. Much of this has to do with the fact that classic styled Unreal maps are simpler to jump in and play. But it also has a lot to do with the fact that any map made to the style of what Unreal did in '98 has a better chance of offering longer, less programmed playing sessions. They aren't trying to look any different than what the engine did in Unreal's day (usually) and mappers aren't burdened with creating brand new things. This gives the classic mapper more time to focus on the tried and true. Things we all know and things that work. This is why the best layouts to play in tend to be found in classic styled maps.

Modern style maps you speak of are trying to do something different than Unreal and the experiences are different as a result. Maps might tend to be more linear, easier to breakdown in subsequent playthroughs. It's a tradeoff. In giving the Unreal player something they haven't seen before you enrich that first-time experience, but you're at greater risk of having weaker replayability. You're also less likely to consider things like COOP. Yes, these maps are trying more to be spectacles, maybe. But it's an alternate experience.

I love the classic map packs as much as anybody else, but I believe in this day and age even Unreal maps should be pushing towards new frontiers and innovation rather than employing the same ancient texture packs, mapping techniques, gameplay formulae etc. that so many "classic" maps have already explored. I desperately long for Unreal maps that present completely fresh content and ideas thst deviate from the standard formula in some way.

Yeah but there's no rule saying you can't do this with a classic styled map. The myth of the modern map (the one LH is talking about) is that it's the only one that can evolve. Firestorm is a beautiful example. Classic levels in the spirit of Unreal...real mammoths in terms of scope, most of them, with but a few new features, new enemies ect. Closer to what Unreal was all about than anything made since the game itself. We should all endeavor to follow such examples.

[Lightning Hunter]

I understand where you are coming from, Sana. I also enjoy seeing some fresh content, but only to a certain extent. A few new weapons, Monsters, and textures can certainly make things more interesting. However, if too much is changed and I can no longer recognize the adventure as Unreal, then I typically don't enjoy it. I was never a fan of total conversions, because they change too much of what made the game good in the first place. The Unreal formula works for me, and as such - I never tire of playing user-made maps with the classic feel. Total conversions to me are like purchasing a new game, and I rarely enjoy new games. Whenever I find a game that I enjoy, I prefer content added on that follows the same formula. When I play Doom, for example, I want to simply shoot hordes of monsters dead. When I play Quake, I want to see cryptic dungeons with interesting monsters like Ogres. When I play Unreal, I want to see a magnificent atmosphere mixed with storytelling. I enjoy the feeling of isolation and not being able to communicate with the natives of an alien planet.

But of course, this is just my opinion. I can certainly understand why people enjoy the more modern packs. I do sometimes stop to enjoy ONP and Xidia, but not as often as the classics that have the Unreal feel.

Edit: That's funny Proph, I started typing my post before yours, and we made some very similar points. Your "jump in and play" theory is exactly why I enjoy the same formula repeatedly. I've gotten less patient with learning new games as I've gotten older. When I see a release that looks like a classic Unreal map, then I know I can just casually play it without learning anything new.

[ElectricIce]

Here is my side of the coin, What appears to be "classical style" seems to be mostly, (If not all map packs stated above), for Unreal and the modern style are for Unreal tournament which are basically two different games in their sort.
I've played and enjoyed every single pack of the stated above but I guess my preferred style is the modern, I am quite young and grew up with a strong liking to Unreal tournament over unreal, until I lost the cd. Anyway I think ONP was my first pack ever followed up by 7b because I couldn't find Xidia anywhere until I stumbled upon this site.

But I think I've grown to love the classic style even more nowadays.

[UB_]

To me everything boils down to quality and quality only.
Also new ideas / breaking the usual mold / new themes are welcome.

[SteadZ]

I have to say that I prefer the classic feel much more. I'm not sure what it is about it, I just really like it. I try to make my maps within the classic area, but occasionally, very occasionally, I wander into the Modern area.

[GTD-Carthage]

I doubt my opinion can be considered since I am also one of those people who have been exposed to UT much earlier than Unreal. But if I were asked between choosing, for example, to develop a project that is perfectly in the classic Unreal theme or in a border-expanding whatever-you-think-of theme, I'd really just flip a coin.

Both the 'classic' and 'modern' styles very well appeal to me - they're all Unreal unless explicitly stated otherwise or were not built for Unreal to begin with.

The appeal of classic, as mentioned by LH, is due to the isolationism. I think a better term for this is escapism (for me, at least), which relates to the themes of adventuring beyond the mundane experiences of real life. Unreal's mixture of crashing on a lush planet in the nether regions of the galaxy and then encountering things like grand Nali castles, ancient temples with inhabitants frequently abused by various things, floating islands, sparse Skaarj outposts, mines and other industrial exploitations is part of that escapism because it throws you into places that are believable in-universe but don't actually exist as-is in real life. Most importantly, the lack of human contact is a perfect fit because in all honesty, we all every now and then need some time to get some fresh air and solitude away from the noise and sights of everyday life with Unreal being a legal drug for that issue. The fact that you're alone and all these sights of the Unreal Universe are yours to see alone makes a personal connection.

As for 'modern', or specifically 'postmodern' as I'd call them, would involve a category of themes that are trying to be Unreal, but specifically aren't in the theme initially set by the creators (Epic Games). The deal with modern maps is that they tend to break away from the standard formula due to many reasons: 1) We want to see a completely new experience. 2) We want to use the existing tools provided by Unreal Engine games to create OUR story and OUR vision. 3) We want to try creating something that bends the initial conventions set by the Unreal theme of 'random romp through Na Pali'.

Now, I see Xidia and 7B are considered modern - it is worth noting that the protagonists of both mods have their own personalities - which is required if we were to make any sort of character-based story at all. But this fact alone means that may be one people too many compared to Prisoner 849's lack of personality (at least, until she gained a voice) - defeating the escapism because now we're encountering people all over again. And people with problems, at that, when the deal of escapism to temporarily pull those problems out of our periphery.

In the end, modern maps can introduce a lot of new techniques and perceptions that can enhance the old while the old creates a rigid framework that makes it easier for us to create lore in an instant. (It's not that hard to imagine Skaarj Outpost <number><letter><number> is it?)

So, TL;DR, I equally favor both. The fact that we experience this much diversity is what I'm in Unreal for. This is why you won't see me active at all in the forums of ANY other first person shooter, not even games I really like such as Bulletstorm or Borderlands. This is why, despite some experience in Source, I didn't settle with Left 4 Dead or Portal, etc. either. (But I did apparently discover how to map for them. )

[Semfry]

Going by those lists "classic" sets tend to much less scripted and linear than the "modern" ones (even if the latter still aren't a fraction as bad as most modern FPS games have become in that regard), with less disruptions to the gameplay, which lends itself to re-playability better and makes them easier to jump straight into, but I guess Mr.Prophet already covered this. I tend to replay both types about equally though.

[Semfry]

I guess I could edit this into the last post but this is pretty important in itself; this "modern vs classic" thing has come up in most older games I frequently play mods for like Doom, Quake, Tomb Raider etc. With the improvement of engines leading to mods that are more scripted/storytelling based and less isolated as far as stuff like character interactions go. In general I think the very best mods are the ones that find the harmonious middle ground between the two, with the higher graphical quality and scripting/new features of the modern style and the much greater degree of exploration and lack of major disruptions to the base game flow (which you presumably already like if you're playing mods for a game) of the classic style. Along with storytelling that has the greater presence of modern mods without letting it heavily intrude on the gameplay flow. Again, I guess that's sort of what Mr.Prophet said .

[TheIronKnuckle]

Here is my side of the coin, What appears to be "classical style" seems to be mostly, (If not all map packs stated above), for Unreal and the modern style are for Unreal tournament which are basically two different games in their sort.
I've played and enjoyed every single pack of the stated above but I guess my preferred style is the modern, I am quite young and grew up with a strong liking to Unreal tournament over unreal, until I lost the cd. Anyway I think ONP was my first pack ever followed up by 7b because I couldn't find Xidia anywhere until I stumbled upon this site.

But I think I've grown to love the classic style even more nowadays.

Same story over here

[Buff Skeleton]

By the way, just to clarify one thing - I'm not necessarily referring to the age of a map when I say it has a classic feel. Deja Vu and Attacked, for example, were made more recently, but have the classic feel. Ortican was actually made before these, but has a more modern feel. Naturally, most of the classic feel maps were made a long time ago, since they only had access to Unreal inventory, textures, music, and ideas.

Quite. I was just thinking of the 8th Anniversary Speedmapping contest results; even though custom content was allowed, there was still a good bit of classic-style stuff released. There was also an interesting mix of classic and modern in Vacillations of a Victorian Vagrant (which fused Unreal gameplay and exploration with a completely unique setting) and in Enslaved (more classic-oriented, but definitely modernized with tree assets and custom scripting), and full-on modern in ISV-Dragonfly, for example.

But when I really think of the classic style, I think of some of the earliest custom maps I played, like DNSPU, Hollow, Strange World, One Day, and Shrakith'a, maps that were either a great mimicry of the original game's design and gameplay (whether they had much of a story or not) or had an excellent build while utilizing solely stock assets.

EXU2 comes to mind, bringing completely new weapons, gameplay balance, systems like colorful gibs and HUD, but sadly gets dragged down by the re-usage of original Unreal maps in that respect.

Heh, "dragged down" may be a little bit strongly-worded there, especially as the Unreal maps have been reinvented so significantly that they are only a surface-level reflection of the originals most of the time, and there's also several brand-new ones. But yeah, had I gone with only brand new content, I'd probably only have completed like 3-4 maps by now The main point of reusing assets was to not only provide a homage to the original game, but to give everybody more combat arenas to utilize and experiment with all the crazy new content. It is definitely a modern-style mod, though, no question about it!

[ividyon]

Well, I'm talking about dragging down my perception of the mod as entire new non-Unreal thing. It's pretty hard to regard it as total conversion when you're traversing the same geometry/map layouts, however changed they may be. I didn't mean it drags down the pack quality-wise, since I'm perfectly aware how hard it would be to make everything from scratch and that EXU2 is an achievement on its own that doesn't explicitly need that.