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Some graphic questions for you experts

For gameplay advice and broader discussion of single-player Unreal including custom maps, mods and mutations that alter the game.

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TheFreeOne
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Subject: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 00:18

Hi I'm an old player of Unreal, Ialways loved the game and I'm noly now starting to play it's Single Player mods. I remembered this site so I gave it and OldUnreal my trust for everything needed for the best play experience.

Oh my, I downloaded EVERY map on this site, then I played Unreal plus RTNP, just to remember it, and then Xidia Gold, Sky Town and now playing 7 Bullets... AND only NOW i find there's a D3D10 driver.

Why? Why it was not listed in the main sites? OldUnreal, UnrealSP, why did you do this to me?!? T.T

Ok, enough joking. I have some questions:
1) does the latest 227 patch contain the D3D10 Renderer?
2) The latest D3D9 Renderer in Dohnal's site is version 1.3, but on unrealtexture.com I found D3D8 ver 1.4. There is some REAL difference between D3D8 and 9 and the Dohnal's renderers?
3) I try every option I find, in Advanced options or in the ini files. But lots of them seem to do nothing. There is a complete list of what exactly does every option for D3D and OpenGL renderers?
4) It seems I cannot play Xidia with Volumetric Lighting on, when it comes to maps that use it extensively, il lags greatly. I tried lots of combinations to make it easier for the graphics card, but they were not enough or unuseful at all. I use a Radeon 6850 (i think), is it possible that's not powerful enough? There's a way to get the fog without lagging?
Thanks in advance, even if noone responds, for the GREAT work in all these years.

User avatar Jigoku
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 05:07

227 comes with D3D8 and 9 + OpenGL. NIVIDIA is better.
Trying to get back into the swing of things.

User avatar Gizzy
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 13:19

Unreal/UT doesn't NEED any better renderers really. I want to play the game as the developers intended. That means without any half-finished hi-res texture packs and over-tweaked bs.

Also, this:
Somebody who actually knows what the fuck they're taking about wrote:Unreal doesn't crappity smacking need HDR/bloom and ridiculous post processing effects that aren't even using in game calculations to determine it, it's all crappity smacking fake.


/rant

I believe there was a D3D10/11 driver made for Unreal 225(?). The guy couldn't compile it for 227 because he needed the headers, which only Smirftsch has.

TheFreeOne wrote:3) I try every option I find, in Advanced options or in the ini files. But lots of them seem to do nothing. There is a complete list of what exactly does every option for D3D and OpenGL renderers?


rtfm: http://www.oldunreal.com/wiki/index.php ... 3D8_/_D3D9

TheFreeOne wrote:4) It seems I cannot play Xidia with Volumetric Lighting on, when it comes to maps that use it extensively, il lags greatly. I tried lots of combinations to make it easier for the graphics card, but they were not enough or unuseful at all. I use a Radeon 6850 (i think), is it possible that's not powerful enough? There's a way to get the fog without lagging?
Thanks in advance, even if noone responds, for the GREAT work in all these years.


Not sure about this one. I'll let one of the devs that worked on Xidia tackle that issue (Or you can go ahead and blame Oldskool)

UB_
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 13:39

Uncapped drawdistance is good-cool
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User avatar ividyon
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 13:52

Welcome to USP, TheFreeOne! Please enjoy your stay.

Regarding your questions,

1) 227 does not contain the D3D10 renderer, however it is not necessary. The D3D10 driver differs only in the fact that it adds experimental visual effects such as bloom and bump maps, which however end up looking really weird and bad in a game as old as Unreal. It may also give you some performance issues. Instead, I recommend that you use either OpenGL (the most widely used option for many years, before the D3D9 driver caught up in performance) or D3D9.

2) If you use Unreal 1, you should stick to the renderers that come with the 227 patch without replacing them. If you use UT, you should probably use the renderer off CWDohnal's site, as it is the official resource for these patches.

3) You can find an extensive list of the most important renderer options here

4) Try again with either OpenGL or D3D8/9 configured properly. Unreal map packs should not be that demanding, and I've run the campaign flawlessly on way inferior hardware.
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TheFreeOne
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 21:43

Thanks for the responses! X) I now checked My hardware, I got and Asus EAH6770.

Gizzy wrote:Unreal/UT doesn't NEED any better renderers really. I want to play the game as the developers intended. That means without any half-finished hi-res texture packs and over-tweaked bs.

Look, I played them this way a lot of time. I had always UT at the minimum graphics detail because i was interested in frags, not graphics, and with the old hardware I needed fps more than anything. I totally agree with what you said, BUT if the developers where developing it now, they would have used better textures, graphics enhancements and all the stuff they could. A game is NEVER what the developers intended; it's the best they managed to do with their ideas.

If the enhancements and the textures replacing would be totally faithful to the original, I would not have any problem using it. The HDR and bump mapping effects seems really cool to the screenshots, but I fear they make the lighting and the maps work in unexpected ways, so you're right about this point. It would be cool if Epic original Unreal authors should decide to remake Unreal or at least make a sequel with respect of the emotions it gave, but I don't think this will ever happen.

At least I'm really happy that I don't really need D3D10. Probably it would have lagged anyway, of course... I'm the AbsolutelyNoLag biggest fan. And Thanks for the options list!!

sana wrote:OpenGL (the most widely used option for many years, before the D3D9 driver caught up in performance

Do you mean D3D9 should be faster? I tried just yesterday a map of 7Bullets (shits!, I had to remember to give the greatest compliments for that stuff!), where there was to consequential rooms with lot of fog. I used it to make quite a bit of tries with the renderers, but it semmed to my unexpert eyes that OpenGL worked slightly better... Am I doing something wrong?

I'm using the Dohnal's renderers with UT but I thought it was not a Xidia problem (or OldSkool, like Gizzy said). I'll try asking them, if they do not respond here. I noticed that the only two commands who improves performance with VolumetricLighting on are SimplePassFog (obviously) and OneXBlending set to False. I'm displeased, because i lreally liked OneXBlending, but it would have been acceptable if the two thigs set up together would have brought my fps above 30. Nothing. Boo-ooh!!

Sana, and the others, Keep up the good work!

/----/

Ok, now there are some options that aren't explained in the pages you gave me. Apart from things I can understand like Translucency, Volumetric Lighting, etc, I would like to know what UseTruForm does, plus its related options TruFormMinVertices and TruFormTessellation. Then I ignore ShareList meaning, plus other I think minor commands.

Thank you all.
Last edited by TheFreeOne on 17 Jul 2012, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar Semfry
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 23:25

Gizzy wrote:Unreal/UT doesn't NEED any better renderers really. I want to play the game as the developers intended. That means without any half-finished hi-res texture packs and over-tweaked bs.


The irony of this is that the newest Direct3D renderers are the only way to make skyboxes in the original Unreal look like they are supposed to on modern systems (Glide wrappers aside).

Edit: I think Truform is an ATI thing that makes models more detailed. On an older game like Unreal it's unlikely to work very well though.
Formerly Mman

UB_
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 23:39

Mman wrote:
The irony of this is that the newest Direct3D renderers are the only way to make skyboxes in the original Unreal look like they are supposed to on modern systems.


Wait, otherwise how they'd look?
You mean the horrid "black aura" of the suns?
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User avatar Semfry
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 23:43

I mean stuff like the Dark Arena skybox, which regardless of preferences, is obviously how the developers intended the skybox to optimally be (which is important when someone says renderer updates are bad due to "developer intent").
Formerly Mman

TheFreeOne
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 23:49

I would like to understand if it's a Xidia problem or not. Can someone tell me a UT map with lots of volumetric lighting? And maybe an Unreal map too, so I can compare the effects of the 227 patch renderers with the cwdohnal's ones I'm using for UT. Even if I assume they're the same...

User avatar Mister_Prophet
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 04:15

It isn't a Xidia problem, in so much as I am aware. The campaign is perhaps a bit more demanding than stock levels due to the nature of level design, but no more than many multiplayer levels that were made at the time, and no changes to the core game are made within the campaign itself. Could be Oldskool, but I have doubts about that. I'm already assuming you have volumetric lighting set to True and that standard UT levels that use fog have it active, like DM-Fetid, yes?

EDIT: It may be relevant, but Xidia was tested and made using OpenGL, and we designed the levels to use the S3TC textures featured on UT's 2nd disk. It wasn't essential that the campaign be played this way, but I do admit that D3D testing and considerations were not made at the time we released it.

User avatar ividyon
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 08:43

Mman wrote:Edit: I think Truform is an ATI thing that makes models more detailed. On an older game like Unreal it's unlikely to work very well though.


I actually faintly remember using it when I had a Radeon, and it worked just fine! So, if you have an ATI card (not actually sure if it's a requirement), it may be worth messing around with. It didn't even look half bad!
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TheFreeOne
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 13:09

Ok, now the Best Compliments to Mr.Prophet and his teams, expecially on 7Bullets!

Mr, I use OpenGL because it's faster, apart the fact that 7Bullets.ini does not have D3D9 options in it. Maybe it can bu useful to know that in D3D9 it lags even at the UT classic intro map, don't know its name, and it doesn't with OpenGL. I played now Fetid and it's smooth and fully functional with fog. I noticed that the map is always narrow, and that in Xidia and in 7Bullets I had to disable volumetric lighting only when I came across quite large areas. Yesterday I was continue my game and I came across a point where it lagged without any fog present (never had it before, only had Fog lags): that's the large corridor you have when you encounter the Fusion Station Engineer and his logs, in Noork's Elbow underground. Disabling VolumentricLighting helped the case even now, although the frame rate dropped to 40 fps. I decided so to try putting the engine at it's lowest but keeping Volumetric Lighting in Familiar Odds zones where it lags, disabling DynamicLighting, all filterings, all detail texturing and such. I replaced S3TC to normal textures and set S3TC to false. I always have AA and anisotropic off (I don't really see any difference with those enabled, but I know they can cost fps, so I switch them off) so I really should be not pushing my requests too far. The lowest I could do, and it still lagged.

It's really possible that I have to play without Volumetric with a Radeon 6770 a game engine of thirteen years ago, while sana said he (she?) had no problems with inferior hardware? I always had this fog problem with Xidia in my previous hardware, but this time I saw Xidia Gold didn't lagged really much, so I thought "This time I'm ready". Fuck.

I post the 7Bullets.ini graphics parts, then I go tweaking around with TruForm and ATI Catalyst Control Center.

[spoiler][Engine.Engine]
;GameRenderDevice=D3DDrv.D3DRenderDevice
GameRenderDevice=OpenGLDrv.OpenGLRenderDevice
AudioDevice=Galaxy.GalaxyAudioSubsystem
NetworkDevice=IpDrv.TcpNetDriver
DemoRecordingDevice=Engine.DemoRecDriver
Console=UTMenu.UTConsole
Language=int
GameEngine=Engine.GameEngine
EditorEngine=Editor.EditorEngine
WindowedRenderDevice=SoftDrv.SoftwareRenderDevice
RenderDevice=GlideDrv.GlideRenderDevice
DefaultGame=Botpack.DeathMatchPlus
DefaultServerGame=Botpack.DeathMatchPlus
ViewportManager=WinDrv.WindowsClient
Render=Render.Render
Input=Engine.Input
Canvas=Engine.Canvas
CdPath=D:
RunCount=138

[WinDrv.WindowsClient]
WindowedViewportX=640
WindowedViewportY=480
WindowedColorBits=32
FullscreenViewportX=1280
FullscreenViewportY=720
FullscreenColorBits=32
Brightness=0.300000
MipFactor=1.000000
UseDirectDraw=True
UseJoystick=False
CaptureMouse=True
StartupFullscreen=True
CurvedSurfaces=True
LowDetailTextures=False
ScreenFlashes=True
NoLighting=False
SlowVideoBuffering=False
DeadZoneXYZ=True
DeadZoneRUV=False
InvertVertical=False
ScaleXYZ=1000.000000
ScaleRUV=2000.000000
MinDesiredFrameRate=35.000000
Decals=True
NoDynamicLights=False
UseDirectInput=True
ParticleDensity=0
NoFractalAnim=False
SkinDetail=High
TextureDetail=High

[OpenGLDrv.OpenGLRenderDevice]
Translucency=True
VolumetricLighting=False
ShinySurfaces=True
Coronas=True
HighDetailActors=True
DetailTextures=True
TruFormMinVertices=0
TruFormTessellation=3
UseTruForm=False
ZRangeHack=True
AAFilterHint=0
NumAASamples=0
UseAA=False
RequestHighResolutionZ=True
MaskedTextureHack=True
SmoothMaskedTextures=True
FrameRateLimit=60
SwapInterval=1
UseVertexProgram=False
UseCVA=False
UseMultiDrawArrays=True
TexDXT1ToDXT3=False
DynamicTexIdRecycleLevel=100
CacheStaticMaps=True
UseTexPool=True
UseTexIdPool=True
UseSSE2=True
UseSSE=True
BufferTileQuads=True
BufferClippedActorTris=True
SinglePassDetail=True
SinglePassFog=True
ColorizeDetailTextures=False
DetailClipping=True
UseDetailAlpha=True
DetailMax=0
RefreshRate=0
MaxTMUnits=0
NoFiltering=False
NoMaskedS3TC=False
MaxAnisotropy=0
UseTNT=False
Use16BitTextures=False
UseS3TC=True
UseAlphaPalette=True
AutoGenerateMipmaps=False
UseTrilinear=True
UsePrecache=True
AlwaysMipmap=False
ShareLists=False
UsePalette=True
UseMultiTexture=True
UseBGRATextures=True
UseZTrick=False
MaxLogTextureSize=8
MinLogTextureSize=0
MaxLogVOverU=8
MaxLogUOverV=8
OneXBlending=False
GammaCorrectScreenshots=True
GammaOffsetBlue=0.000000
GammaOffsetGreen=0.000000
GammaOffsetRed=0.000000
GammaOffset=0.200000
LODBias=0.000000
DescFlags=0
Description=[/spoiler]

TheFreeOne
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 13:33

Ok, I read what TruForm does and I'm not interested now, but it should look nicer, so I wil keep it on until it gives me problems. I tried to minimize my Catalyst settings with volumetric lighting, and it didn't change really much, fps highened a little bit, but not above 30. I tried then to maximize my settings withouth Volumetric lighting, and it went really smooth.

If you don't find anything wrong in the settings, I would like to try if it's OldSkool. Let me know an Unreal map with lots of volumetric lighting and large areas.

Thanks in advance.

redeye
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Subject: Re: Some graphic questions for you experts

Post Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 20:12

Only ever use openGL here, D3D always has this desktop to game problems lag and mouse pointer problems, even for newer versions of UT.
Just ban everyone

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