26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

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26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Sat42 »

Map Title: Back Again
Author: Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce
From: Déjà Vu - Gryphon Revisited v2.01
Filename: USP-01-Hellscrag.unr




Video Playthread:


With text commentary:


Synopsis: June 21st, 2253.
You are Juan Brie, a survivor of the ISV-Kran crash on planet Gryphon, also known as Na Pali. You had previously managed to escape with your life, but your employer, the Inuit Corporation, has now ordered you back to the planet's surface to retrieve some artefact... arguing that your experience of the planetary environment and its hazards makes you the only man for the job. Inuit's intelligence insists that the Skaarj are no longer in operation on the planet's surface...

You now approach Gryphon's orbit with your scout ship: wait, what was that? A blip on your scanner? But it's gone now. You could have sworn something was there! Let's hope you're not being followed...

Discuss!
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Hellscrag »

What instinct is it that draws me back here for one of my occasional visits whenever something of mine gets posted? :D

A few random thoughts:
  • This is a speedmap, and it shows. In fact, I made it during my last 3-4 weeks at University when all the hard work was over. I basically 'wasted' the time I had left with my housemates as a result.
  • I made this before I'd had my 'revelation' about Conceptual Grandness, a term that seems really pretentious to me now, but with - I think - sound principles at its core. For contrast, I refer you to Pan'thali Haven (DOM-HomeTown).
  • Despite the uninspiring build, I made a real effort with the pathnodes, and an enemy could follow you pretty much anywhere around the map if it wanted to (including via the deadly double lifts). Also, I still quite like the bit near the beginning with all the wooden plank bridges.
  • The house design is pinched from The Landing. The reason I didn't use Pancho's Nali hut design in The Landing is because the first map of that pack wasn't originally meant to be Na Pali at all. It was intended for the second episode of Kenophobia which became Spatial Fear.
  • This was during my 'Gryphon not Na Pali' phase. I still regret losing that battle... the intentions of the original map names in Unreal seem incredibly clear to me. It was the mission pack that messed it all up.
  • "Juan Brie" was my stupid idea :lol:. Obviously it was never serious. What can I say? Repeated exclamations of 'Cheese!' were a thing among my University housemates and me at the time.
  • The Deja Vu 'storyline', such as it was, was meant to play out in a second map that Willis was going to make, but he never had the time. If I remember correctly, the 'artifact' was going to be found in the middle of a Nali village built over water (Tashara's Cove style) where the Mercenaries were under active attack by the Skaarj. However, I don't think we ever really settled what the 'artifact' was going to be or what, if any, involvement it would have in the pack after that.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Semfry »

An enjoyable opening for the set. Given the nature of Deja Vu I like how it's so immediately "classic" and eases you right into the set while getting to the action quite fast, with the chosen music also fitting that perfectly. The layout keeps you going forward with only minor diversions, but I like how it looks back on the start towards the end, and the small bit of backtracking to the exit adds enough enemies to stay interesting. Hellscrag might not like the lack of big standout design elements (although I like the somewhat new structures compared to base Unreal), but, for a starting map I feel the familiarity sets the norm before the more experimental and challenging maps that follow it; I've seen multiple people say that they play through the first half or so but feel Deja Vu loses some momentum towards the end, and I think this being such a smooth start is part of why it's easy to push through the early maps.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Aspide »

Déjà Vu Gryphon Revisited is as classic as you can get, this project is soo well made that it could have been an official expansion for Unreal, just like RTNP, however Déjà Vu suffers from the same issue as RTNP and that is the story, there is an opening cutscene that sets the plot however as soon as you start the next level the story gets deleted from existence, not even the final map does a good job at ending the story, however the final cutscene is very funny.

This is one of the most entertaining maps in the campaign, it's so easy to pick and play (this being the first map also means you don't have to worry about other items when you start the level). Level geometry is very good especially terrain (however opening the level in the editor reveals that Hellscrag made the terrain in the most difficult and time consuming way possible :D ). The rest of the geometry is good as well, I really like that Hellscrag reused the houses from The Landing, those houses are very unique especially considering that most mappers reuse the same house from Unreal over and over again, however I was disappointed when I realized that you cannot break the houses windows. Lighting is very well made, I notice some similarities with The Landing and even Tashara's Cove, also nice choice of textures. This map has translator messages however they don't expand on the story at all and they are just there to either tell stories of the Nali or how to proceed, however I really like the signs that tell you the names of places you are visiting, Hellscrag really likes adding plenty of detail in his maps.

Sound design is very strong, every sound has a source and the map uses plenty of DynamicAmbientSounds to give life to the environment, decorations are also well used especially everything that has to do with flora and fauna. Music is excellent, the track (called "Nagomi Passage" or "Journey") is great to set the mood of the campaign where everything you remember from Unreal and RTNP is back to its full glory, however I wished that there was a music event at the end of the map so the transition to the next map was more seamless.

Gameplay is the highlight of the map, you have plenty of weapons, ammo and health packs to deal with the opposition with no trouble, however in Unreal difficulty you have to be more careful with ammo and that means using the dispersion pistol more often, so better get used to that gun 8) . Enemies have a nice progression, from Mantas to Kralls and finally the Skaarj , every enemy has a chance to shine and thankfully the map has plenty of difficulty filtering so there's plenty of replay value, however a huge let down is that the map doesn't use OddsOfAppearing, so there's no randomness here :| . It was a nice surprise seeing the Squid (an unused enemy from Unreal), they are everywhere in the area with the Kralls and the water.

Also this map has two secrets, one is a pickup and the other one is an easter egg, the last one is at the beginning of the map, good luck in finding it :B

Issues I found:
-If you start the map from the opening cutscene the difficulty will reset to Medium, this forces you to skip the intro if you want to play other difficulties.
-Map doesn't use OddsOfAppearing.
-There is no Coop filtering except for some items at the beginning and the player starts, yes that's right, player starts have coop filtering, a very big technical problem since navigation points should never have any kind of filtering.
-Level has pathnodes but it isn't perfect, there are plenty of places with no pathnodes like the water or the inside of the houses.
-Elevators have Lift Exits and Centers, however the Lift Exit at the top has connections to the bottom, which can confuse the enemy AI.
-The doors of the houses are ReturnWhenEncroach, so it's very annoying to enter the houses since you keep bumping on the doors. This could have been fixed by making the doors IgnoreWhenEncroach or change the doors so they open differently. This happens with the mover in the secret area as well.
-The key you get at the end is a mover set to ReturnWhenEncroach, this means that if you get very unlucky you can bump into the key preventing it from moving, thankfully this won't soft-block the map.
-The final doors and the elevators are CrushWhenEncroach.....:shock:
-The lighting of the final area doesn't match the start of the next map.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Mister_Prophet »

I get to comment on a Hellscrag level!

Me and Mike have not always seen eye to eye over the years when it comes to matters of tone (although I find as I've gotten older that I have come around to his way of thinking when it comes to classic Unreal styled levels). I've said this before and probably on other of Mike's MOTW. But, he always knew how Unreal maps were supposed to feel. "Back Again" is as others have said a fantastic starting level and yes, it really taps into some classic Hellscrag Unreal vibes.

I will need to comment on a few things Mike has posted, I hope I've given him enough time to respond.

Hellscrag wrote:
The Landing is because the first map of that pack wasn't originally meant to be Na Pali at all. It was intended for the second episode of Kenophobia which became Spatial Fear.
In all the years I've known you I do not believe I ever remembered that you were a part of the dev team on Kenophobia. Good to know I'm not the only failed aspiring mapper for that project :o
Hellscrag wrote: [*]This was during my 'Gryphon not Na Pali' phase. I still regret losing that battle... the intentions of the original map names in Unreal seem incredibly clear to me. It was the mission pack that messed it all up.
Ah yes, I recall these forum debates.

Was it really a lost battle? I don't quite remember how the forumers reached a standstill on this issue. Wasn't it something like the Nali and the Terrans had their own names for the planet?

I also thought of it frankly as being something very explainable in real world terms. We all know that map level names like "Gate to Na Pali" are a bit direct on the matter, but then the Mission Pack came along and basically settled the whole thing.

In America we have some states that have towns named "Earth Town" or "Earthville." People have no problems making confusing local names based on planetary bodies. Also, I always took it as that there is something going on with the Nali language or how they perceive their own world and the cosmos that doesn't come across right in translation. Like perhaps their idea of their homeworld is based on atmosphere (heaven and all it shines upon), and that the true world is above the clouds and all the towns on the ground live "below Na Pali."
Hellscrag wrote: [*]"Juan Brie" was my stupid idea :lol:. Obviously it was never serious. What can I say? Repeated exclamations of 'Cheese!' were a thing among my University housemates and me at the time.
I always took it more as a character nickname with context that was just lost to the player :lol: So like, we never really know his true name.
Hellscrag wrote: [*]The Deja Vu 'storyline', such as it was, was meant to play out in a second map that Willis was going to make, but he never had the time. If I remember correctly, the 'artifact' was going to be found in the middle of a Nali village built over water (Tashara's Cove style) where the Mercenaries were under active attack by the Skaarj. However, I don't think we ever really settled what the 'artifact' was going to be or what, if any, involvement it would have in the pack after that.
I know we've discussed the McGuffin in the past quite a lot. I can honestly say that at no point did I have conversation about the artifact while making my one map, nor the intention to include it that late in the campaign. Honestly speaking I think Deja Vu works as a good misadventure type story where the original reasons for why our guy is there get dismissed rather early. Now that you bring it up, do you remember what the artifact was supposed to actually...be?
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by TigerTheGreat »

The very first level of the pack... I call bullshit on the "conceptual grandness" complaint because in the grand scheme of things it sells the entire campaign's location as Na Pali and the Deja Vu's feel as a mission pack that could've been a professional commercial product - at least it has the production values of one in my opinion.

A perfect start to a timeless classic of a campaign.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Hellscrag »

Mister_Prophet wrote:Me and Mike have not always seen eye to eye over the years when it comes to matters of tone (although I find as I've gotten older that I have come around to his way of thinking when it comes to classic Unreal styled levels). I've said this before and probably on other of Mike's MOTW. But, he always knew how Unreal maps were supposed to feel. "Back Again" is as others have said a fantastic starting level and yes, it really taps into some classic Hellscrag Unreal vibes.
You’re always very gracious, Will, when commenting about my old maps. I appreciate it even if I’m unsure I deserve it. :shy:

Yes, we did used to have quite different ideas. I recall wanting to rap you on the knuckles when the rest of us delivered 12* classic Unreal-style maps and you delivered something beautiful, high-tech and entirely unlike anything Unreal ever featured! I was also disappointed that you and EBM connected your maps via a big teleporter, when the intention was that the player would travel through the landscape of EBM's map (which features a few fragments of ancient ruins, as per the design brief) and eventually uncover the broken-down old temple that concealed the Skaarj base. Instead, it felt like the player was whisked away to another planet entirely for the finale. However, it was a speedmapping project, and I had neither the time nor the authority to protest and get anything changed. :lol:

* Yes, there are 15 maps in Deja Vu now, but in the first release there was no second zynthetic map and Triskaden Station was represented by a placeholder.
Mister_Prophet wrote:In all the years I've known you I do not believe I ever remembered that you were a part of the dev team on Kenophobia. Good to know I'm not the only failed aspiring mapper for that project :o
The memory is getting a bit foggy, but when the project leader announced that the project was going to focus solely on the prologue episode I think I had a minor strop and walked away from the project, taking what little I had of my map with me. I believe it was supposed to open the next episode. But in hindsight it's just as well; the design of The Landing is too primitive and wouldn't have been an asset to the project.
Mister_Prophet wrote:Ah yes, I recall these forum debates.

Was it really a lost battle? I don't quite remember how the forumers reached a standstill on this issue. Wasn't it something like the Nali and the Terrans had their own names for the planet?

I also thought of it frankly as being something very explainable in real world terms. We all know that map level names like "Gate to Na Pali" are a bit direct on the matter, but then the Mission Pack came along and basically settled the whole thing.

In America we have some states that have towns named "Earth Town" or "Earthville." People have no problems making confusing local names based on planetary bodies. Also, I always took it as that there is something going on with the Nali language or how they perceive their own world and the cosmos that doesn't come across right in translation. Like perhaps their idea of their homeworld is based on atmosphere (heaven and all it shines upon), and that the true world is above the clouds and all the towns on the ground live "below Na Pali."
It felt like a loss to me. I felt protective of 'Na Pali' as a name for the sky town alone as I felt it added to the specialness of that place. I THINK my preference was for the planet itself to remain nameless, but I settled on Gryphon as a tolerable alternative, even though it wasn't referenced in Unreal and didn't really have the right feel.
Mister_Prophet wrote:I know we've discussed the McGuffin in the past quite a lot. I can honestly say that at no point did I have conversation about the artifact while making my one map, nor the intention to include it that late in the campaign. Honestly speaking I think Deja Vu works as a good misadventure type story where the original reasons for why our guy is there get dismissed rather early. Now that you bring it up, do you remember what the artifact was supposed to actually...be?
No, I don't think we asked you to make any specific reference to the artifact in your map... nor do I think there was any clear idea what it was meant to be. Given the rushed nature of the project I think I just hoped that Willis would come up with some answer and resolve the storyline within the confines of his unmade map.
Delacroix wrote:The very first level of the pack... I call bullshit on the "conceptual grandness" complaint because in the grand scheme of things it sells the entire campaign's location as Na Pali and the Deja Vu's feel as a mission pack that could've been a professional commercial product - at least it has the production values of one in my opinion.

A perfect start to a timeless classic of a campaign.
Thank you. Well, as Will already observed, recapturing the classic Unreal feel was always very important to me. At a young age I was quite deeply inspired by the world the game created, hence always trying to return to that sense of beauty and wonder through the twin media of maps and fan fiction. Reinvention or reimagining what Unreal should look like was never a goal for me.
Last edited by Hellscrag on 01 Nov 2024, 23:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Hellscrag »

Semfry wrote:I've seen multiple people say that they play through the first half or so but feel Deja Vu loses some momentum towards the end, and I think this being such a smooth start is part of why it's easy to push through the early maps.
To be honest, I have to agree with this general assessment. My attention tends to drift after Triskaden Station. Up to that point the atmosphere is quite dense and classic. Beyond that point, as the pack returns to daylight, I feel there's a loss of mood, and each map has at least one specific thing that puts me off:
  • Willis' map has an exceptionally annoying boss fight, and I'm frustrated by the absence of the missing map that would have resolved the 'story'.
  • Maekh's map, while quite ambitious, impressive in scale and, on the face of it, well-made, also feels a bit empty and under-developed. There's a lack of story support for the location and what does or used to happen there.
  • EBM's map is the work of a very inexperienced mapper. It's not bad, but there's a lack of progression to the environment and, with several tough battles and hidden snipers, it can feel a bit of a slog. Also, from this point on, the pack introduces Xidia-style Skaarj skins - something I never agreed with at the time as I felt it departed from the classic Unreal design ethos of the map pack.
  • As I already mentioned, Will's map is beautiful and technically very accomplished but stands far apart from the rest in concept and execution.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Mister_Prophet »

Hellscrag wrote:
Yes, we did used to have quite different ideas. I recall wanting to rap you on the knuckles when the rest of us delivered 12* classic Unreal-style maps and you delivered something beautiful, high-tech and entirely unlike anything Unreal ever featured! I was also disappointed that you and EBM connected your maps via a big teleporter, when the intention was that the player would travel through the landscape of EBM's map (which features a few fragments of ancient ruins, as per the design brief) and eventually uncover the broken-down old temple that concealed the Skaarj base. Instead, it felt like the player was whisked away to another planet entirely for the finale. However, it was a speedmapping project, and I had neither the time nor the authority to protest and get anything changed. :lol:

* Yes, there are 15 maps in Deja Vu now, but in the first release there was no second zynthetic map and Triskaden Station was represented by a placeholder.
I actually love Triskaden Station. It and Waff's map are probably still my favorite levels from the final version of Deja Vu :tup:

As for the teleporter issue...Well, I'm gonna be honest about it. Over the years I've probably made a bunch of posts about this on the forum but this was so long ago I really don't recall the situation too well. I do remember being confounded a bit about how to follow EBM's map exactly and can't say for sure if the teleporter was his idea or mine. All I can say is I figured if I was gonna do a teleporter entry I might as well make that the whole theme of the level, so it really became a Skaarj teleporter HUB of sorts to explain the many Skaarj teleporters that we see all around the planet. I still think the enemy selection could have been de-Xidiafied, agreed, and the skybox was something I have notoriously never been in love with (ran out of time to replace it, given other priorities).
Hellscrag wrote:
It felt like a loss to me. I felt protective of 'Na Pali' as a name for the sky town alone as I felt it added to the specialness of that place. I THINK my preference was for the planet itself to remain nameless, but I settled on Gryphon as a tolerable alternative, even though it wasn't referenced in Unreal and didn't really have the right feel.
Come to think of it I do not actually know the origin of the Gryphon name, was that just something you made up or was it in a log material that I do not remember from the early game? Nevertheless, it makes for an interesting discussion even so many years later.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by TigerTheGreat »

Whatever the source was, it seems that Gryphon is a Terran designation and Na Pali is the native name. Kinda like we call Japan Japan and to the Japanese it's Nippon.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by fashahhh »

Yes Deja Vu! This did always feel like the second mission pack for Unreal. It just has that Unreal vibe all the way through and this map is the perfect start to the campaign.

I haven't played this for years and remember it being much easier so it was trickier than I remembered. I played on hard and got killed twice (whilst on 12 health) by an ambushing manta. I also forgot how good the path finding is having retreated only to find a Krall / Skaarj right on my tail.

I like some of the little details in this one too. The gibbed Nali whose taken a rocket from a Brute and his little backstory that he's a painter with his easel in his house. Also the signpost mentioning the town as a sign of things to come.

This is a classic Unreal experience which feels like it would fit right in to one of the retail campaigns.
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by ebd »

Deja Vu was one of those packs that I played a lifetime ago but needed to refresh my memory of. It's a short and sweet map and a nice use of journey.umx that captures the "feel" of Unreal well.

I have a fair amount of comments to put in the video, but the recording is also pretty short so, maybe the video will come later tonight, or tomorrow morning.

edit:
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Re: 26/10/2024 - "Back Again" by Mike "Hellscrag" Wilberforce

Post by Sat42 »

Hey hey everyone, nice to read y'all!

Always a pleasure to see you return and comment Mike! :D Look how your legacy continues! We even got 3 videos for this MOTW (all added to the OP) :tup:

EDIT: map comments added at last! (been busy)

OK so while I agree this is a nice start to Déjà Vu, I'm also going to side with Hellscrag's point about the map lacking in terms of "conceptual grandness": it's indeed a bit too "domestic" in size and tone, just compare with NyLeve's Falls or Edge of Na Pali which is also a first level in a campaign. As a result, it's not that memorable and hence not among the greats.

That said it's still very good, and I do remember the good mobility of enemies from my first playthrough (like a Krall using a lift).

In a way, this is closer to the stereotypical start of a classic video game, with its nice countryside houses and grassy areas under a (relatively) bright sky and pretty ponds and waterfalls (not to mention the rather relaxing music), than Unreal itself (which has a traumatic start). That's not a problem in itself and I know I could introduce my partner to Unreal with this, whereas she'd run away immediately from the horror that is Vortex Rikers. So yeah, a good way to ease players in :)
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